Free will.

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Free will.; a touchy topic that won't tear us apart
Topic Started: Jul 26 2009, 05:06 PM (701 Views)
Sedaheht	Jul 26 2009, 05:06 PM Post #1
Hero of Thyme Posts: 1,423 Group: Members Member #52 Joined: Mar 28, 2009 Premium No	In your opinion do we, or do we not, have free will? I'll let you folks start.
	~Alex


Juggernaut	Jul 26 2009, 05:58 PM Post #2
Omnibus Locis Fit Caedes Posts: 1,591 Group: Members Member #29 Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Premium No	Well, to some extent, yes, but to some extent, no. Do I think that our destinies are governed by some higher power that is both omnipotent and omniscient? No. However, what we do, say, and feel has to be governed by some set of laws, whether they be physics or something of the like (i.e. you can't travel faster than the speed of light, excluding wormhole theories). So, we do have free will, but what we can do with it resides within a realm of laws that govern everything else. It's not very well point, I admit.



Sedaheht	Jul 26 2009, 06:02 PM Post #3
Hero of Thyme Posts: 1,423 Group: Members Member #52 Joined: Mar 28, 2009 Premium No	Juggernaut Jul 26 2009, 05:58 PM Well, to some extent, yes, but to some extent, no. Do I think that our destinies are governed by some higher power that is both omnipotent and omniscient? No. However, what we do, say, and feel has to be governed by some set of laws, whether they be physics or something of the like (i.e. you can't travel faster than the speed of light, excluding wormhole theories). So, we do have free will, but what we can do with it resides within a realm of laws that govern everything else. It's not very well point, I admit. So, even though you accept that the laws of physics are relevant even within our own mind, you think we have genuine free will?
	~Alex


Juggernaut	Jul 26 2009, 06:14 PM Post #4
Omnibus Locis Fit Caedes Posts: 1,591 Group: Members Member #29 Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Premium No	Sedium Darxide Jul 26 2009, 06:02 PM Juggernaut Jul 26 2009, 05:58 PM Well, to some extent, yes, but to some extent, no. Do I think that our destinies are governed by some higher power that is both omnipotent and omniscient? No. However, what we do, say, and feel has to be governed by some set of laws, whether they be physics or something of the like (i.e. you can't travel faster than the speed of light, excluding wormhole theories). So, we do have free will, but what we can do with it resides within a realm of laws that govern everything else. It's not very well point, I admit. So, even though you accept that the laws of physics are relevant even within our own mind, you think we have genuine free will? Some form of it, yes. What I mean to say is that I don't believe in the religious term dubbed "predestination". I mean, if you think about it, there could be any number of reactions for a single action, and the result is sometimes chosen by the individual, not bearing any significance from any one law. This really goes into the whole whether or not there is a "soul", for if there were no soul, and each thought, emotion, and action were simply reactants of a string of chemical imbalances and reactions within the body, one could think that there is no free will, only the effects of each reaction upon the environment. But, if we choose to accept the idea of a "soul", something completely random, indescribable, unique, and unknowable, the whole system is thrown to hell, for supposedly, a soul would be able to act outside the laws of the universe (similar to how "god" works), being able to choose what reactions it followed and which were ignored. Ramble, ramble, ramble...



Sedaheht	Jul 26 2009, 06:17 PM Post #5
Hero of Thyme Posts: 1,423 Group: Members Member #52 Joined: Mar 28, 2009 Premium No	Juggernaut Jul 26 2009, 06:14 PM Sedium Darxide Jul 26 2009, 06:02 PM Juggernaut Jul 26 2009, 05:58 PM Well, to some extent, yes, but to some extent, no. Do I think that our destinies are governed by some higher power that is both omnipotent and omniscient? No. However, what we do, say, and feel has to be governed by some set of laws, whether they be physics or something of the like (i.e. you can't travel faster than the speed of light, excluding wormhole theories). So, we do have free will, but what we can do with it resides within a realm of laws that govern everything else. It's not very well point, I admit. So, even though you accept that the laws of physics are relevant even within our own mind, you think we have genuine free will? Some form of it, yes. What I mean to say is that I don't believe in the religious term dubbed "predestination". I mean, if you think about it, there could be any number of reactions for a single action, and the result is sometimes chosen by the individual, not bearing any significance from any one law. This really goes into the whole whether or not there is a "soul", for if there were no soul, and each thought, emotion, and action were simply reactants of a string of chemical imbalances and reactions within the body, one could think that there is no free will, only the effects of each reaction upon the environment. But, if we choose to accept the idea of a "soul", something completely random, indescribable, unique, and unknowable, the whole system is thrown to hell, for supposedly, a soul would be able to act outside the laws of the universe (similar to how "god" works), being able to choose what reactions it followed and which were ignored. Ramble, ramble, ramble... Exactly. Science tells us our minds are nothing more than particles following well-defined laws of interactivity, and yet if this is all our minds comprise then there is no free will and we are all destined to follow the unavoidable and unguided progression of the universe with no actual say on the matter.
	~Alex


Juggernaut	Jul 26 2009, 06:43 PM Post #6
Omnibus Locis Fit Caedes Posts: 1,591 Group: Members Member #29 Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Premium No	Science also tells us that we don't know a large part of it, so how set in stone the paths of interactivity the particles represented by our minds take has yet to be determined.



Sedaheht	Jul 26 2009, 06:50 PM Post #7
Hero of Thyme Posts: 1,423 Group: Members Member #52 Joined: Mar 28, 2009 Premium No	Juggernaut Jul 26 2009, 06:43 PM Science also tells us that we don't know a large part of it, so how set in stone the paths of interactivity the particles represented by our minds take has yet to be determined. True, but as with all science everything is ruled out until demonstrated to be valid. Free will is ruled out because a) free will is, as it stands, a completely unobserved phenomenon, and b) there is no observed phenomenon that free will could be a unique explanation for. With the current collection of observations, free will is as superfluous as a universal creator.
	~Alex


Juggernaut	Jul 26 2009, 06:56 PM Post #8
Omnibus Locis Fit Caedes Posts: 1,591 Group: Members Member #29 Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Premium No	Sedium Darxide Jul 26 2009, 06:50 PM Juggernaut Jul 26 2009, 06:43 PM Science also tells us that we don't know a large part of it, so how set in stone the paths of interactivity the particles represented by our minds take has yet to be determined. True, but as with all science everything is ruled out until demonstrated to be valid. Free will is ruled out because a) free will is, as it stands, a completely unobserved phenomenon, and b) there is no observed phenomenon that free will could be a unique explanation for. With the current collection of observations, free will is as superfluous as a universal creator. Quite true.



Sedaheht	Jul 26 2009, 07:07 PM Post #9
Hero of Thyme Posts: 1,423 Group: Members Member #52 Joined: Mar 28, 2009 Premium No	………………_„-,-~''~''':::'':::':::::''::::''… ………._,-'':::::::::::::::::::::::::::::… ………..,-'::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::… ………,-'::::::::::::„:„„-~-~--'~-'~--~-~… ……..,'::::::::::,~'': : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : '-\| ……..\|::::::::,-': : : : : : : : - -~''''¯¯''-„: : : : :\ ……..\|::::::::\|: : : : : : : : : _„„--~'''''~-„: : : : '\| ……..'\|:::::::,': : : : : : :_„„-: : : : : : : : ~--„_: \|' ………\|::::::\|: : : „--~~'''~~''''''''-„…_..„~''''''''''''¯\| ………\|:::::,':_„„-\|: : :_„---~: : :\|''¯¯''''\|: ~---„_: \|\| ……..,~-,_/'': : : \|: :(_ o__): : \|: : : :\|:(_o__): \..\| ……../,'-,: : : : : ''-,_______,-'': : : : ''-„_____\| ……..\: :\|: : : : : : : : : : : : : :„: : : : :-,: : : : : : : :\ ………',:': : : : : : : : : : : : :,-'__: : : :_',: : : : ;: ,' ……….'-,-': : : : : :___„-: : :'': : ¯''~~'': ': : ~--\|' ………….\|: ,: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :: : :\| ………….'\|: \: : : : : : : : -,„_„„-~~--~--„_: :: \| …………..\|: \: : : : : : : : : : : :-------~: : : : : \| …………..\|: :''-,: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :\| …………..',: : :''-, : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :: ,' ……………\| : : : : : : : : :_ : : : : : : : : : : ,-' ……………\|: : : : : : : : : : '''~----------~'' …………._\|: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : :\| ……….„-''. '-,_: : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : ,' ……,-''. . . . . '''~-„_: : : : : : : : : : : : :,-'''-„
	~Alex


Deleted User	Jul 26 2009, 07:08 PM Post #10
Deleted User	I have free will. I don't give a fuck what I do. =]
Deleted User


Juggernaut	Jul 26 2009, 07:11 PM Post #11
Omnibus Locis Fit Caedes Posts: 1,591 Group: Members Member #29 Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Premium No



Sedaheht	Jul 26 2009, 07:16 PM Post #12
Hero of Thyme Posts: 1,423 Group: Members Member #52 Joined: Mar 28, 2009 Premium No	Therefore, free will exists. /thread
	~Alex


Deleted User	Jul 26 2009, 07:18 PM Post #13
Deleted User	END.
Deleted User


Juggernaut	Jul 26 2009, 07:19 PM Post #14
Omnibus Locis Fit Caedes Posts: 1,591 Group: Members Member #29 Joined: Jul 28, 2008 Premium No	GG no re



Deleted User	Jul 26 2009, 07:35 PM Post #15
Deleted User	Sedium Darxide Jul 26 2009, 07:16 PM Therefore, free will exists. /thread Determinism thinks otherwise. The argument of determinism seems to make sense, but at the same time, indeterminism is just as compelling of an answer. It's impossible to prove free will, or a lack thereof.
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